Revolutionizing Anatomy Education: A Dive into Technology, AI, and Symmetry with Professor Mike Pascoe

What's going on, everybody? It's Mark Kargela your host of the Modern Pain Podcast, and changing it up for you this week a little bit with a new episode that is going to be audio only, mainly because the video recording was corrupted, didn't work, but anyway, we're going to roll on with an audio only episode And this week we have Mike Pascoe. He's an associate professor in the School of Medicine at the University of Colorado and shoots medical campus. I met Mike oh gosh, maybe a decade ago through his wife, who's a physio and doing some good things up there in Colorado. We'll talk about that. His primary role as a developer and deliverer of gross anatomy content within the DPT and PA curriculum and he also constructs in the MD curriculum there at the Anschutz Medical Campus. His research explores the integration of technology and anatomy education. He's also interested in partnering with clinicians for donor based anatomy education experiences. We'll talk about his scholarly activities and where to kind of look Mike up on the internet. He has a website that we'll share in the show notes. A good episode. This week. We talk a little bit about his anatomies. I like to geek out, nerd out on tech, so Mike and I discuss some of the tech and some of the ways he's leveraging that in his curriculum. We discuss the challenges of hybrid education and the pivot that was made by a lot of DPT educators and educators in general when the pandemic struck and we had to move to online education only, and we'll talk about some of Mike's other podcast pursuits and some of his hobbies. I think Mike's a good example of somebody who's not just strictly hustling and burning the candle at both ends, just only on anatomy. He has some hobbies that I think and he'll talk about that kind of balance him out and allow him to kind of enjoy life to its fullest. I hope you enjoy the episode. This is the Modern Pain Podcast with Mark Kargela. Welcome to the podcast, mike. Mike, you know it's good. I've followed you on Twitter. I actually got to know Mike through really meeting his wife, stephanie, who's a great physio and just does some amazing things up there in Colorado, but got to know Mike through her and I have followed him on Twitter. He's bringing a unique perspective. I think honestly our first anatomist who's been on the Modern Pain Podcast, so we're excited to have him aboard. Mike, if you don't mind just introducing yourself to the audience and letting folks know where you're at and what you're up to.

Yeah, of course. So yeah, Mike Pascoe, and like I do with my students full disclaimer, comma, phd I am just a PhD. I don't quite have the Trail of Letters after my name, so I then tell my students I'm not allowed to touch people, so take that for what you will. And I'm in Colorado, i am living in Boulder County and I practice I mean, I teach at Anschutz campus of the University of Colorado, so that's a good commute for me. It's about, you know, 25 miles down the road, but that's in Aurora, colorado, and I have been there since 2011. I was one of those lucky few that did my graduate training, interviewed for a job right as I was wrapping up and defending, got the job. So no postdoc for me, fell right into a faculty position. So very fortunate with that. And I've been able to really come on board with my teaching of human anatomy at the University of Colorado. I do that with PT, of course, that's how we're connected. And then I also get to teach anatomy with PA and MD, and at some point in time I've also taught dental students as well as modern human anatomy students. And that's just fancy speak for a two year master's degree in advanced anatomy studies. So, yeah, that's where I'm at And I'm at the rank of associate professor, which is just a huge relief because it's a lot of work and really just represents a big achievement for somebody that really is first generation to even have a college degree. So it's really been a cool journey, a cool process to look back And, yeah, i just love sharing what I can share to help students, researchers, pts, helping everybody, primarily through anatomy.

Yeah, no, it's a. I've been at your campus once. It was way back with a Manipalooza way. I don't know how many years this goes probably over 10, 12 years ago but beautiful campus, you guys have up up that way And always have enjoyed my trips up to Colorado. So you're teaching responsibility. You obviously teach quite a breadth of. You know different professions beyond just the physio profession. I'm curious, like, within the physical therapy department, i know you we're going to talk a little bit because you're in a process of really kind of revamping and doing some creative work with, with. How do we, how do we deliver anatomy when we're looking at hybrid delivery models and different things like that? But right now, what are you up to like is as far as within the physical therapy room. You know teaching and your responsibilities there.

Well, you know, you caught me during week one of the 10 week first year PT anatomy. Basically, it's the first year students And so it's your very legacy brick and mortar standard anatomy curriculum. It's really fine tuned and well oiled at this point And I also am going to. Then in a couple of weeks I'm going to welcome the second year students back to campus from their clinical experience And in our curriculum you get two rounds of anatomy And so we basically then we don't have to squeeze everything into 10 weeks we can do most of the body And then when students come back for round two, they get abdomen and pelvis and then a very in depth three week dissection down to the joint capsules, the ligaments, the articular surfaces. I think you know, being movement system experts, we really need PTs to see that. So that's kind of what I'm doing like right now, in the moment, and at the same time I'm happy to say we are approved as a PT program to launch our hybrid, our hybrid program, and that is going to we're going to matriculate the first cohort in June of 2024. So now the rubber is really meeting the road and I'm really allocating every hour, every learning session, and trying to, you know, translate very much the same anatomy curriculum but to a different mode of delivery.

Yeah, no, that, first off, congratulations. I, you know our program at Midwestern University. We've just, you know, recently been approved by CAPTI for that as well And I, you know, i'm just a clinical professor, so I just see patients in clinic, i do some scholarly and some other things. I'm getting a little bit more into the look at the research And but I was, you know, able to see on the sidelines of all the work that goes into a program, like getting the application ready and all the things, And it is an immense amount of work And I'm sure it was a huge relief to see that come to fruition where you guys got your approval. So congrats on that. And you know, with what you're talking about, the hybrid model, because I've asked this question and we've had discussions with them, like you know. I like the hybrid thoughts And I mean anywhere where we can make it more efficient to make maybe programs a little bit more, you know cost effective, where students may not have to move and you know, by housing they just have to come in for a few weeks, you know, a couple of times a year to get their intensives and their like major hands-on training and different things. But I'd love to hear how anatomy looks and like what you think the challenges that model brings with teaching anatomy.

Yeah, i mean, i always frame it by the big picture and all I need to do is give PT students an understanding of how the body is organized. So when you start at 30,000 feet there, then we start to trickle down to the details of you know what regions. And then I really was fortunate to do a study a couple of years ago where I asked practicing PT's like what is need to know for learning objective level information for physical therapy Students, like you know, i was always teaching be able to describe fetal blood flow and how does it change post birth. And it was a hard sell, honestly, right Like it was a hard pitch and students were really reacting kind of like why do we need to do this? And so you know, my 173 survey respondents confirmed that is not nest. Like, do not do that, cut that and spend more time on being able to name every spinal segment that goes to a given muscle. Okay, students grown about that one too. That's a big lift but confirmed as essential and need to know. So getting down to that level, that's pretty solid, so we don't want to mess with that. The learning objectives are tight Now with the challenges, the delivery and making sure that the body is represented in multiple ways because our universal design theories they tell us that when things are represented in multiple different ways, that really leads to learning success. Nobody is truly 100% one learning style. We're all multimodal, so being able to deliver things in multiple ways really helps. So we have to look at technology and what's available there. It is really nice to be able to have access to donors on campus And that's what our brick and mortar students do for their anatomy application, and so what I do is I'll take advantage of that And I have a library of photos, i have a library of video demonstrations using the donor material. So that's one way to represent the anatomy, and then we just kind of go from there and do the classic things. We have recorded lectures so the learner can scrub through playback at their own speed, pause when they need to. I'm a big advocate of drawing And so I give students a lot of drawings to simplify complex concepts. Yesterday we did the scapular arcade or the arteries that come around the scapula to an astimus, and they're just very favorably received And it's just another way to represent the way the body looks, the way the body functions, and so my hope is, with all of those kind of theories. To lean on cognitive load theory, the ideal amount of information, reducing extraneous load by doing it that way and culminating, as you mentioned, with the immersion weeks, that's going to be really the application. The students are going to be very well prepared to succeed in that big objective be able to identify the break-yield artery on three donors, for example. So that's where we're at. That's all informed by my experience teaching other courses through the pandemic actually, so I was able to really test a lot of that out.

Yeah, no, that's a good point. I think you tested it on the fly And that's what a lot of us had to do to just kind of flip curriculums immediately without really any forewarning, because that was obviously just kind of unforeseen territory for us all with the pandemic, and so it sounds like that was a pretty solid testing ground for you in kind of working into that hybrid format. Did you find any difficulties with that or did you feel like students were able to adapt? I was always impressed with the adaptability of students in a massively challenging environment where what they're used to seeing face-to-face now they have to figure out a way to kind of imbibe this information kind of more in a virtual format. I mean, what was your experience?

Yeah, it was good. I was really fortunate that I was working at the professional school level And as adult learners, the students have had experiences with their own study strategies. And, as an anatomy professor, i think really all professors to some extent, especially those first year, first semester professors. We have to grapple with study habits And nobody ever really takes a class on how to learn, unfortunately. And then you add in the fact learning is counterintuitive. It's just a recipe for disaster, right? So you get people that come in that think they can cram, that think that highlighting the textbook is good, rewatching the lectures is good, reviewing the content for week one, only during week one, and then I'm sure by week three, when the exam comes, everything's going to be OK. But we see that over and over again that that doesn't happen. So the challenges really then with presenting remotely, became engagement, right. So we had to be really creative and crafty as to how we gave learners opportunities to apply their information that they're learning in kind of the sterile, recorded lecture environment. Ok, you've listened to that. You know what you need to know from the learning objectives. Now here's an activity that gives you a chance to do it. So we were pretty creative and followed the model of what a lot of people did and use a lot of different platforms that are available out there that really sprung up, you know, beyond Zoom and beyond polling. One that comes to mind is Flipgrid, and I have seen my wife use Flipgrid very effectively. So hat tip to my wife, stephanie. She really role modeled and figured out how to do it really well and especially for psychomotor things, for assessing PT, manual skills, like talk about a real achievement. So I was able to take a look at that and get her advice and do the same thing for anatomy. Of course, not with donors. Students don't have access to that. So we're talking about objectives like be able to summarize the blood flow around the scapula using a drawing. So they could do that and they could talk me through on their whiteboard, on their iPad, piece of paper, whatever And then I could give them feedback. Am I teaching assistants could do this too. So it really was a slam dunk And I think it really worked out pretty well.

Yeah, no, i mean props to all you folks in academia and the academics. Like I said, I'm on the clinical side of our faculty so I didn't have near the immense challenge of trying to learn how do I deliver this stuff in a completely different format, and I mean at a short time period. I mean there wasn't a lot of like. Obviously we didn't have a lot of heads up to know this was coming And to be able to do that. I mean props to all of you who are listening, who are in the academic world, who are able to do that. I know our faculty it was an immense challenge, stressful at times, but it was impressive to see everybody kind of pull through and our students are still coming out, you know, doing well passing boards and then doing well with patients, so happy about that. I wanted to kind of I had a selfish question that I wanted to ask. I kind of we kind of talked about it leading up to this because there's there's a lot of theory out there in physical therapy that relies on, you know, our ability to palpate anatomy and some of it very much on the symmetry of our anatomy, that that there's like we should be able to see. You know, psis, asis, pelvic and and other areas of the body too, and not just at the pelvis. I'm curious with your experiences as an anatomist and and obviously having a very detailed look inside many a human body. I'm just what's your view on this? this thought that that there should be a symmetrical human being, that we should be able to palpate symmetry. I'm just loving to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, this is a good one, because I had never heard this. I've never heard my wife talk about it. I work with tons of clinical faculty. I teach with David James as a as a clinician alongside me in clinical anatomy. I'll be talking to him about this tomorrow. I've never heard this theory. However, i you know as many anatomists are attentive to detail, and this immediately brings me to osteology and looking at the skull, and we have our students learn all the openings of the skull with the top off, looking inside, and then flipping the skull over to look from the inferior view. And even when you're looking at all of that, there are massive asymmetries in terms of how wide openings are, how long processes are. I mean, i I wonder what the tolerance is on average across the body, and I think that in my experience, which only includes looking at around 500 donors plus I don't know how many bony specimens that we have in our bony collection I think there's probably like a five to 10 percent variation within an individual, between sides. I've never heard of this idea, and now I also want to talk to my clinical faculty that teach palpation. Is this an underlying assumption that PTs make, that there is symmetry, and I wonder what my students would say, having gone through anatomy labs. So my perspective is that symmetry within that tolerance of five to 10 percent or less than 10 percent identical is not very common Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and that I mean it tends to, and again it's probably my bias a little bit. I think some of the theory that really looks at symmetry is, you know, alignment based narratives, which you know osteopathic theory is very much based on being a palpate. You know different alignments and judging, like the sacrum and the SI joint. I remember Josh Cleveland I did a lecture and talked about, i think there was like 18 to 21 different ways to name positional faults at the SI joints, which, again, there's another joint that has some debate around it as far as, like, its ability to move And does this thing fuse over time? What is your? because you've seen, i'm guessing, specimens of all ages and in your view, from what you see in the human body, that SI joint's ability to one, is it fusing at? you know, i've heard people say 50 by 50. It's provisively fused. I've heard older. I'm curious, what with your experience, what your view is on the SI joint and its capability to be, you know, maybe moving as we age.

Yeah, i mean my clinical colleagues, which is maybe sampling bias that they all are on the camp of. This thing doesn't move. Look at all the ligamentous stability around it. Look at the articular surface. From an anatomical perspective I personally cannot appreciate it moving very much. I mean the nutation, the counter-nutation. I know it's possible and could be pathologically exaggerated, but for the most part I can't see it moving. The question about when it fuses, you know, with Anatomy Lab we are taking our donors from the Colorado State Anatomical Board who are on average age of 80 years old, and so I am also biased on the later stages in life. So I can't speak to win. But with this debate somebody's got to have done freshly acquired donor material and done some biomechanical. You know, rigging and testing of the tissue and something like into your 50s and 60s really becoming more immobile is feasible to me. I think someone's got to have a paper out there by now that has a little bit of empirical data, haven't?

looked. Yeah, i bet you're probably 100% correct. I just, you know, always interested just from your, you know, relatively, i guess, anecdotal experience with just what you see in the lab, but it's just interesting, i think. You know it's a lot of the Theories and you know, obviously our podcast is a lot about pain and we used to really think pain was housed in this very mechanical phenomenon that you know we were going to be able to just palpate it based on asymmetries, and that would explain, you know, pain that might be persisting. Or, again, you know, getting very hyper focused and maybe a little hyper analytical around. You know these alignment and movement narratives because, again, i think sometimes we try, when we see complexity of like, manage sure isn't making sense, some of the traditional things we used to use isn't working. So we try to get deep into complexity and I think maybe within anatomy and things we got to where, okay, well, maybe it's just these millimeters of movement that we can detect with our fingers and then things that you know research has since really proven that's probably not, maybe the way things work and our ability to tolerate or to perceive that with our fingertips is probably overstated from, you know, some of theoretical things that have been put out there. But yeah, no, i appreciate your, your, your, you know viewpoints on that. You know what you mentioned a little bit leading up to our chat today. A little bit about your research. I'm curious what kind of research are you up to? I know you're doing it. You're doing some cool things, you know, not just with PTs too.

I think you're doing some some cool things outside the PT yeah, i mean I would say my research agenda is really kind of characterized by trying to figure out how to best integrate technology into anatomy teaching, really becoming more emphasized on learning outcomes. So not just oh yeah, students like using snapchat for anatomy reviews. But now let's be more systematic. This group did use, this group did not use. Were the exam outcomes different with the snapchat study? they did better. They did 7% better, statistically better for the snapchat reviewing group than the control group. So that's kind of interesting. There's some interesting theories out there. The hallmark at the time. I know the platform has evolved greatly over time since the study was published, but at the time what made snapchat unique was the ephemeral nature of the content. It was it was going to go away. So I found a theory that stated that people pay more attention to things that they know are going to go away. So attention is kind of, you know, the substrate that we look for for learning. So I wanted to see if I could capitalize on that and sure enough, perhaps like we'll never really know, because education research is messy but at least preliminarily it looks like students paid more attention to that content than the group that didn't use it and so they probably benefited in this very narrow research question of being able to trace a blood cell through, you know, the vessels to the target. So that's like one segment of my research integrating technology. And then the other part is optimizing anatomy curricula. So, more specifically, learning objective analysis. A lot of our colleagues in the healthcare professions, in anatomy they have core syllabi for these are the learning objectives that the expert anatomists believe a physician, a dentist, should have be exposed to for successful clinical practice. That's not out there for PT. It's still not out there for PT. I know that my colleagues are working on it and it's going to be great when it comes out, but I really wanted to take a spin on it and get started, and so what I did is I I actually surveyed practicing PT's. The technique that you use to arrive at like a consensus is a Delphi approach and you usually involve a bunch of subject matter experts and that that's great. That's a very valid, that's a great technique. I wanted to go on inverted and I wanted to have the grassroots, the PTs in the field and for me, the basic science PhD. What do I need to make sure my students are equipped with? so I gave them a survey. I collected a lot of things, but the main thing we'll talk about here is 50 learning objectives. Can you please rate these as essential need to know, nice to know, or what are you doing teaching PT students this information? you've got to stop. So that went out and the distribution among these three categories was like a third, a third, a third. I selected 50 of my 150 learning objectives. Who would want to fill out that survey? with 150 learning objectives you can't do it, so I did 50, some that I thought were like a slam dunk, some that I thought were questionable. So that really explains the distribution I got. But it was a good you know, proof of concept that this type of survey and this kind of statistical test will help you calculate should you want to do this for your learning objectives. Yeah, you know what is need to know and I was able to get a pretty good response rate. I think out of 400 people I sent this to, 170 came back, and having like a 25 to 30% response rate for that length of a survey in education research is pretty good, and so now I feel very confident when students ask. So I really need to be able to name every spinal segment that goes to bicep sprightly. I, yes, and this is, this is the paper like look at this table, like, yes, absolutely you need to be able to do this. So that's kind of like a the second part of my research. And then, lastly, i'm getting clinicians back into anatomy lab for training. So they're usually resident and fellow level and at this time this is mainly gotten off the ground with medicine. So we're talking pulmonology, emergency medicine and gynecology actually, and they come in to the lab. They get to look at the donors that have been dissected by PT students actually and then they give us their feedback on how they rated, how they're they were satisfied with the course, and then also how their knowledge changed. So that's a big dump there, mark. Sorry about that, but it's a. It's what anatomists do, right? it's a very structured, huge answer one, two and three and I'm happy to follow up on any of that if you'd like well, i mean what sings to my interests.

I mean all those are very interesting pursuits. Don't get me wrong. I am always. I'm a, you know I'm a tech nerd. My wife you know. I have an issue with buying gear and tech and things. I often have to have the reins pulled in on me to to not want, you know. I mean I want many tech things and what I actually need is a discussion my wife and I frequently have. But I love the, the thought of tech, because obviously our students are, you know, on on tech and you know snapchat. How long ago was that snapchat study when it was? when was when did that go off? because snapchats kind of still around. It's not as popular as it was like the thing. You know. I came home years back, but how long ago was that study that came?

out in August of 2021 and if you have I'm assuming you've got like a show notes section I'll be sure to give you like the comprehensive link tree that gets fanned out to all the different URLs that are that are relevant to things we're talking about.

Yeah, i know that would be, that would be great. I'm curious because you know I'm always interested in seeing what tech we can, we can bring into the to the classroom and I know I do remember, you know, when I, when we've chatted in the past and and seen you know, with you and Stephanie that you, you were a man of tech. As far as interested in that stuff, i'm curious, like any, like emerging technologies or things you see out there that you're really intrigued about, as far as, like you can see some significant application, be it in your hybrid format, be it in your brick and mortar format. I'm just curious again, a probably selfish question, because then I'm gonna try to go look at it and see if I can nerd out on myself, but I'm just curious. What you're, what you're looking at right now?

Yeah, i mean there's a report you will love to look at. It's called the New Media Consortium, the NMC Horizon Report, and so what they do is they just cast a wide net, they look at all these emerging technologies and then they try to evaluate when they're going to be at these different levels of adoption. And I've looked at it for a while so I needed to dig into it. I was really reading it with regularity in the past, but I would say that what is on the horizon for adoption that would really help out in anatomy education would be AI. I know it's hot, i know it's buzz-worthy, i know it's hash-taggable. Anatomy AI is definitely going to be a big part of what we talk about at our next annual association meeting. And I was, i think, a little bit too early on one of my research projects. It didn't really take off. It was let's get Google Assistant like the Google Assistant, it's like their hardware, i think and put those in anatomy lab, because there's this need for students to have questions answered and there's four faculty for 70 students, so it takes us some time to rotate around the lab. But sometimes students are asking questions like what is the innervation of biceps brachii? What is deep to the brachialis. A lot of these things could be learned and now I'm very happy to see that what you can do is there's quite a few platforms where you feed it a spreadsheet, feed your data, and then it will learn and then it will be able to reproduce with nice natural language processing. Three years ago it was rough. We were trying to get students registered, we were trying to get this to work and we had a graduate student for one of their capstone projects. Make a spreadsheet, but how do you predict what the learner's going to ask? How are they going to ask what this is? And many times students were asking questions we didn't even conceive of. They were asking when they were testing this what is an artery, what is a nerve, or what does a vein look like? How does a nerve differ than an artery in a donor? So definitely keep your eye on AI And I know a lot of people in the PT space Rich Severin, kendrick Agnan. I know that they're studying AI and looking at that really in depth and we should watch for what they're going to come out with. And AI is going to be big on the horizon And I'm so excited Apple joined the VR AR headset game, because we know, when Apple gets into the tech space the phone, the watch, the tablet man they make it mainstream and they make it amazing. And I know Facebook and Meta. They've got a head start on everything. But if history is an indicator, we're going to really see some great gains now in that augmented reality space. And a lot of my anatomy colleagues have been researching augmented reality and anatomy education for a long time. So I think things are going to really come together and accelerate And I think there might be a hybrid time in my next 10 years where we're sending headsets out to the learners and we're all in a virtual lab And the resolution of the donor material is different. We've got multiple different donors with different skin colors. Everything's going to really be clicking and hitting And that's two things I think you should keep an eye on, mark.

Yeah, No, i watched the old Apple event a couple of days back and saw that And I was like I thought similar like virtual environments for patients and all these things that we can do, and then definitely teaching applications, like you said. As far as the ability to create a virtual lab, and like you mentioned, apple usually waits till people have developed it enough to where they can go in and then crush it with like and I know, like just you know, I nerd out and watch YouTube and see what a lot of the they invite, like the big YouTube influencers out there And they were like they've all been And some people I really respect that aren't going to just you know, fanboy it And they're pretty legit. Okay, you know, like MKHBD or Keith Brownlee and a couple other folks, but yeah, it sounds like it's going to be some impressive tech And I'm interested to see how it, how it can you know, have applications I can definitely see you know with. even some of them are chronic pain patients, like you know. the ability to do some exposure with control and put people in virtual environments where they're they're getting exposed to maybe some of their feared movements and activities in a virtual environment. that might can give them a controlled dose of it And yeah, i think it's going to be exciting. AI is another thing too. I've been monkeying with it. I know Google now has barred Yep. I'm barred, yeah, i think it's been pretty interesting And I know you know I'm curious too, just with your. again, i'm not too much on the. I'll lecture on our academic side and definitely can help out with labs and I'll help out with with practicals and things, but my main responsibility is patient care. I'm curious, what's been your, your kind of experience with you know, as a faculty discussing some of the AI and you know obviously some of the benefits but then also concerns as far as, like, students maybe let an AI do more of the work than maybe them. I'm just curious what you're, what you've seen so far in your experience.

Yeah, No, this really. I mean I think chat GPT was released in November and in December in our faculty meeting we were already talking about this and it's a very traditional reaction. It's an arms race between the teacher and the student. You know the student will look for an opportunity to get a tool that will help them out and then the faculty will try to come up with ways to lock down the browser, to check for plagiarism and all those things. So I'm not super interested in that perspective. And again, i'm pretty fortunate to work in a professional program level where we have adult learners and you know a lot of these behaviors, professional behaviors are coming on board. So I don't really get to hang out in that space. I kind of hang out in the space of like, what can we leverage it for? And so not my ideas. But our faculty came up with ideas like, okay, you're going to explicitly be told to use AI to generate a plan for opening your own PT clinic or summarizing the movement of the SI joint, and then you're going to appraise and you're going to edit, you're going to fact check, and I think that's where we really get to see that higher level of Bloom's taxonomy, where you're not using AI for the low level create, define. but let's step up Bloom's and say appraise, assess, let's do those kinds of things. So, again, not my ideas. The other people I work with have come up with these great ideas And I was like, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Let's go down that path. Let's not try to figure out. What platform are we going to use to catch students when they cheat, like we?

have an honor code.

Are you going to pull out chat GPT on the NPTE? LOL, No, you're not going to do it, It's not going to happen. So that's kind of yeah, my response and where I'm at right now, which is subject to evolve, but yeah, pretty interesting.

Yeah, no, it is definitely interesting times that we live in and I'm excited to see I love that thought of like using you know, chatchy peer a i to kind of give us some of the foundational things where we can take it and appraise it and really take it to that kind of professional Screw me to that we need to levy upon. You know everything, chachi pt obviously been shown to produce citations that aren't even real citations. I mean it's getting better and who knows, gosh, by time You know this thing gets released, this podcast or even been a few months, it might have corrected that already. The way it's growing, i got those patients who are talking to me fearful that this are gonna be the end of times with robots. Come in for us and take it. I mean there's some scary possibilities. We don't need to get into the two sci-fi depths of it, but i think it is exciting technology, to say the least. I think, provided we can harness it and use it for for things that move the move us forward as a human race and as definitely as a physical therapy profession or just healthcare professions in general, i think it's got huge opportunity to help a lot of patients. I'm excited to see The future. But but, mike, i'm curious. Maybe last thing we can do is just kinda anything you're up to right now or anything you want to share with the audience or where they can, and then maybe also where they can find you online and can. I know you have a podcast i love to use. I know you're in the early stages and, trust me, i've been in the early stages and i think we're gonna be like a hundred and fifteen hundred fourteen episodes with with your episode. But I'd love to hear kind of what you're up to now and if you want to share anything with the audience where all yours Yeah, i mean again back in two thousand five something.

Possess me to register the domain mike pass go dot com. So that's your go to url to be presented with the. You know a list of things i'm up to. I try to keep recent publications up there and projects and then all the social channels That i'm a member of you can find there. I'm in that's pass go with an e at the end. If there's ever a mistake in my name, it's for getting the e at the end. But Other than that, i would say that podcasting is really also interesting to me. Speaking of two thousand five, that is really when i remember like blogging coming on board And podcasting is kind of an application of blogging technology with like rss feeds and xml and all that fun stuff. So Now it's really a rebirth. I mean i don't even think i could call it a renaissance anymore because i've been saying that for three years. Like when is a renaissance over? like, definitely, podcasting is really exploded again and there's a lot of really good stuff out there, and so i'm really fortunate to be able to connect with host like you Just have good conversations. There's a lot out there. So i am definitely podcasting and it is related but not related. So i'm also a big advocate of You can be an awesome academic and also have hobbies and also have interest outside of your work And also the family life, and it's really ideal when you can kind of thread a lot of those things together. So my thread right now is I recently inherited my grandmother's stamp collection and i postage stamps, so i did say that. So i inherited her collection in 2017 and that revive my stamp collecting hobby from when i was a little kid, like nine or ten. So i do have a podcast around this idea. It's called dissecting philately. Philatelies like the professional term for stamp collector, a postal history custodian, all those things. So i was thinking i'm gonna fold Professional personal together, and so the idea with dissecting philately is that it's a split. I walked the line between anatomy and philately and i find similarities between the two disciplines and i bring those together every episode. So things like Manual dexterity okay, you need manual dexterity in the section. So maybe you're a philatelist listening to the podcast and you're thinking tell me more about anatomy. Okay, so when you're in anatomy and dissection is a removal process, these are the tools you use. Does that sound familiar, philatelist? because a lot of those tools that we use in anatomy lab you use with your stamp collecting and then so for the anatomists listening in, they get a peek inside the world of stamp collecting. So i'll take them through. These are album pages. This is a stock book. You're gonna use this and that for these different applications. So that's been really fun and really rewarding, because i get to feed my like myself, care for my own. You know what i'm interested in, what gets me excited, and it's really not all that different than what gets me excited professionally. So i found i think i'm really fortunate in that i found that, and i wish that for everybody, and i'm always interested to hear what people's hobbies are. I love that my hobby is analog. I mean, i've got stamps all over my office, right, like i've got This letter sent to colorado before it was a state in 1875. i mean, look at george washington there. That is a nice looking example of that three cents stamp that paid the route from st louis to colorado. So There's a story there, and anatomy teaching is effective when you've got a story on pain. Education is effective through story, right, and so is Stamp collecting, like these things tell stories. They're not dusty old pieces of paper to everybody, and so that's kind of my mission with the podcast. It's kind of like to cross enlighten Each side and then give my kids something to do in the meantime. Like will go to the stamp shows together, their members of the denver young collectors club. So we every third saturday we go check things out and talk to other collectors. So I think that would be like the way to wrap it up. Mark to say my past go dot com, find me there. I'm most active on twitter, would love to Dm to exchange, to chat with people there, and then i just encourage people like find those passions, pick up a hobby. See what has happened in your family. Can you keep running with that? i know that's been my case with stamp collecting and postal history and Yeah, i mean, life is short, so let's try to enjoy it while we're here.

No, i love your thought with that to is like the thought of like man maybe it isn't just work, work, hustle, hustle, hustle that maybe i can take a breath and have hobbies and focus on family and bring that into a podcast and sharing that story of how you're kind of succeed in that realm and And with the stamp collecting, i think that's awesome. I think that's a great and there is definitely an audience out there for anything. I'm always amazed by some of the things i see on like youtube and You know and different things that like they're just massive group. There's just so many billions of people on earth and you can often find a good group of people who are very interested in the same interest you are. And if you can Share some value with that audience by your experiences, your collection, your different things and your way of finding a balance between academia and still enjoying a Personal life outside of the classroom, i think that's great. Man, i wish you nothing but luck in that pursuit and i'm sure you'll do awesome with it. So I want to respect your time tonight. Again, thank you so much for sharing your time with us. Make sure you say hi to stephanie, hope the family is doing well and i keep doing the great work up there in colorado.

Yeah, she says hi back. Thanks a bunch, mark will catch up with you down the road.

Alright for all you listen, and don't forget to maybe possibly leave a review on the old podcast vendors apple podcasts or spotify. Or, if you're on youtube, definitely subscribe. We'd love to have you as a subscriber and that helps us kind of be able to spread the word to more folks. So until next time, we'll talk to you next week. This has been another episode of the modern pain podcast with doctor mark carjula. Join us next time as we continue our journey to help change the story around pain. For more information on the show, visit modern pain care dot com. Also visit the pain masterminds network on facebook for free education and resources. This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for medical advice or treatment. Please consult a licensed professional for your specific medical needs. Changing the story around pain this is the modern pain podcast.